Episode 1: “Jack”

In the premier episode of Becoming Visible: Trans Stories, your hosts Susan and Jack jump right into sharing about themselves, and do a deep-dive into Jack's journey as a transgender man who came out in his 30's with a wife and three kids in the small town of Hartford, South Dakota. Jack began working as the Community Health Worker/Community Outreach Manager for The Transformation Project in 2022 after leaving his career of 12 years at Citibank.

Susan: Hey, everybody, it's Susan and Jack, we're so happy to be here with you today. And it's our first time recording, so this is pretty momentous. And as you can tell, we have no idea what we're doing. So, earlier today, I decided to go buy some cupcakes to celebrate our first podcast being recorded, so I texted Jack, and I'm just gonna read you a little bit of what happened.

Jack: Don't hate me? No.

Susan: I mean. So I basically said to Jack, hey, do you have a favorite cupcake flavor? And you texted back? Do you remember what you texted? I said, nope, nope. Just know. And I was like, Okay, maybe he likes all cupcakes. So I texted back and said, hey, you know, I'm stopping by to get some cupcakes, you know, is there. And what I found was something that was extremely upsetting to me. And I really, really was thinking, you know, is this podcast thing going to work out between us because he doesn't like sweets. And I don't really know if you can trust a person who doesn't like sweets.

Jack: I'm still here. You're still here, but in a chance.

Susan: It might not be for long. We'll see how long we can do this. How long we can cohabitate. I just don't understand you at all. I mean, I I did you know I had one more test. You came to the door and my dog greeted you and you are a dog person. So I'm giving you a second chance.

Jack: I barely made it in the door.

Susan: Oh my goodness. So for those of you who haven't met us yet, I'm Susan Williams. I have a transgender son. And that's what brings me to this podcast today. And Jack, why don't you introduce yourself

Jack: I am Jack fonder and I am a trans man. And I am married. I have three kids. I work at a bank and I came out later in life as a transgender person.

Susan: So today we're going to talk a little bit about that experience and what it was like to come out in South Dakota. You live in Hartford? Correct? How big is Hartford?

Jack: Hartford is about 2500 people.

Susan: All right. So are there any stop lights?

Jack: No stoplights.

Susan: Is there a grocery store?

Jack: Yes.

Susan: All right. And does everybody basically know your business all the time?

Jack: Yes. Whether you wanted to or not, for sure.

Susan: So did you live there? Like, before you transitioned as well, so people knew you as another person, right?

Jack: Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I lived there. I moved there in 2013 and lived there for about two years and then moved to an even smaller town for about four years. And then we've been in Hartford now for five years.

Susan: So where did you grow up?

Jack: I grew up kind of all over. But I graduated high school from Waubay, SD. It’s kind of by Webster, or Watertown is the bigger city that it's by it's another very small town.

Susan: Great. Yeah. All right. I’ve heard of it, I just have never gotten the chance to go. I'm sure there are lots of fun things to do.

Jack: Good fishing. If you're into fishing, it’s got a lot of good fishing spots.

Susan: All right, I'll probably never end up going. In that case, let's have a cupcake.

Jack: We're going to talk a little bit about what it means to be misgendered.

And misgendering is really when you're using the incorrect pronouns for someone. So for myself, my pronouns are he him. And I am a trans man. So sometimes when I'm out in the world, I am misgendered. And some people still use the incorrect pronouns for me.

And another word we're going to talk about is cisgender. And Susan, is going to talk to you about that.

Susan: My pronouns are she, her and I identify as a cisgender woman.

And basically what that means is that I was born and the doctor said, hey, it's a girl, and my gender identity, how I feel on the inside my brain, my essence, my being, is also feminine. So I identify as a female. So I'm cisgender.

So we'll be using the words misgender and cisgender. In conversation with Jack – I just want to thank him for his story and for his vulnerability and sharing the way life has turned out for him. So also, in our show notes, you'll find links to our website and other websites as well to help educate you more on topics that have to do with gender identity, and also give you just a good vocabulary lesson as well as we learn some new words. So as a man in your 30s, who recently came out as transgender, how long ago was it that you transitioned?

Jack: It was probably June of 2020, when I came out to some close family and close friends. So it's been a couple years.

Susan: So what precipitated you to come out? What was the breaking point where you thought, I just have to tell people, I have to be my authentic self, what was going on in your life?

Jack: So it was probably the year before like 2019. I had attended some conferences for work, surrounding LGBTQ plus community and kind of how to make sure your workplace is a safe place for the LGBTQ plus community. And I always have known since I was a small child that something just didn't wasn't right. I always, relationships never quite felt right. I always tried to dress more masculine when I was a kid. And then I was kind of told by my parents, Hey, you can't dress like that: you're a girl, you have to do XYZ.

So then I just kind of lived my life doing the things that I was supposed to do. And then in 2019, I went to this conference, and I actually attended a workshop that was being led by a trans man, and hearing his story hit me so hard. I was in this conference in this room with all of these strangers just crying. Because it was like, I had never heard this before. And it was me. It could have been me telling the same story. But I didn't know that. I had never heard about transgender people even up until that point, it wasn't really something that was really a part of my life, even though I was part of the LGBTQ plus community.

At that point. I have been married to my wife for eight years now. So when we got married, we were a same sex couple. So really hearing the story, it was just like, Okay, how, where do I go? Like, what do I do? How do I handle this? And probably a month after that, I kind of came out to everyone and said I am non binary. And I just want to use they/them pronouns, because I thought at the time that that would be easier for everyone else. And that maybe I could live with that. And I can be okay with it. And I could just live my life. And it would be fine. And you know, after a couple months of that, it just was like nope, I feel like I really need to be my true self. And this isn't- I'm still living a lie. So I got a therapist and the first therapy session I had with her. I just blurted it out that I want my pronouns to be he/him, I feel like I should have been a man. And it was very clear like it was just she asked me one question and it just all came spilling out. So from there, it was a lot of therapy and getting the courage to tell everybody in my life and kind of take those first steps and things like that. So that's kind of how it culminated itself. I just realized I have to do it. I was going through some depression and my anxiety was worse and I just realized I have to, if I'm going to be the best person I can be for everybody else in my life. I really need to be my true self.

Susan: So would you say that the depression and anxiety were brought about by hiding your authentic self and just not being able to be who you knew you're supposed to be?

Jack: Mm hmm. Yes, for sure. Yeah, that was a big part of it. Definitely.

Susan: Yeah. So we do see a lot of trans people that we work with, with some mental health struggles. And there has been kind of a stereotype over the years that trans people have mental illness. And that trans being trans is a mental illness. And what we've seen is opposite, that because of the traumas that you're holding in, and because of the way that you are not able to be yourself, and kind of the constraints that people put on you, and that you sometimes do develop some depression anxiety, because of the traumas that you're holding in.

Jack: Yeah, I think that's valid. And I think a lot of people still feel that being transgender is a mental illness. I have people in my own family that have said that, to me, that are not accepting because they say that it's a mental illness. So those things are still being said in the world, you can still find those things on the news, depending on what news you're watching. But yeah, being transgender is not a mental illness, but there are mental illnesses that can come along with it. If you're not able to live as your true self, or if you're just in a bad situation where you can't be yourself. Yeah, it definitely can lead to some of those things, for sure,

Susan: For sure. And then also, you know, coming out as trans and facing rejection by society or family, friends, co workers, that can also cause a lot of mental struggles, depression, anxiety. My goodness.

Jack: Yeah, I mean, even things as simple as like going to the grocery store, or so because I do live in a small town, and I did live there pre transition, a lot of people knew who I was, before I transitioned, and they still, these are not people that I would go and have a conversation with and explain to them, Hey, I'm transgender. And now my name is Jack. And now my pronouns are this because I don't have a relationship with them. But I see them at the gas station, or they work at the grocery store. And they still misgendered me, but I just, you know, it still happens. So that can be difficult. And it can be, especially in the beginning, or if you don't have a lot of support as a transgender person, it can be even more difficult if every time you leave the house, you're being misgendered. That does tend to wear on you and it wears on your mental health a lot. So thankfully, I have a lot of support at home for my family, and I have amazing friends. So that I can feel better in those moments, right, let's this is just some random person, they don't know me. They knew who I was before. So I just have to kind of be like, it is what it is, you know, you gotta gotta pick your battles. Do I want to have a conversation with this person for 10 minutes and explain to them or, you know, seeing them twice a month isn't really for five seconds, you know? But that can be hard when you're in public and you're constantly being misgendered that that can start to wear on you for sure.

Susan: Can you describe what it was like to come out to your family and what the reaction was?

Jack: So my family, and I'm gonna say by family, my wife and I also have three kids. My wife struggled just for a couple of weeks. And then she kind of took some time and did her own research and got help for herself, and how she can deal with this. And she's my biggest supporter now. My kids were all like, okay, cool, we don't care. They also always have my back. So I do have a very strong support system in my home. My friends were all great. My extended family was not as accepting. My parents specifically and my brother have all struggled with it. My mom and I didn't speak for almost a year and a half and I just had a conversation with her a couple months ago. It went better than I expected. It's still not great, but it's something we're working on. My dad has not spoken to me at all since I came out. He doesn't want to be a part of my life. And that's his choice. It's his decision. I haven't done anything to try to change his mind or convince him otherwise. He knows who I am and that this is who I am and I'm happy and this is where I'm going to be and you know, the doors open the phones on if you want to have a conversation So extended family has been difficult. I've had a lot of backlash in that aspect. But my core group of people that I live with are, it's my safe place, my sanctuary. And I know that they all have my back. 100%.

Susan: So how do you get through dealing with that family rejection?

Jack: It's difficult, it's still can be emotional for me to talk about it, or, you know, when you have something great in your life, you get a promotion at work, or your kids do something amazing. You buy a new house, or just anything in your life that happens that you want to share with your parents, and you just can't do that. Because they're not there, they're choosing to not want to be a part of your life because of who you are. Right? So I just decided to be my true self. And because of that, they don't want to be a part of it. So that means I'm missing out, my kids are missing out on that relationship as well, which is difficult. So I mean, holidays are tough. Because I'm not around family, I choose to. I mean, I have a big family on my dad's side, and they have been pretty accepting except for my dad specifically and my brother. But when we have family functions, they've both refused to go to them if I'm there, so I have just decided to not go, and they can go and they can enjoy those things. And then I try to find other times to see those family members when those folks aren't there. So it does make it difficult. And it makes it difficult for those members of the family because too, they're not really sure how they should handle that. Right. Like, if that was me, and it was my family, I would say you don't need to come then because they're going to come you know if you're not okay with it. And that's the stance I would take. But that's not the stance everybody takes and they all do make an effort to reach out and make sure we're good and, and can see each other at different times. So it can make it difficult for everybody, really.

Susan: So this isn't a one time story, right? We hear a lot of the stories we hear are of families that are not accepting of their trans kids or their trans grandkids. What does acceptance and affirmation look like? You know, if you could get that from your family from your parents or your brother, what would that look like?

Jack: Well, so, for instance, I just had a conversation with my mom. She was very emotional. And she had a lot of misconceptions. She had a lot of assumptions and things that she had created in her mind that she didn't just ask me about. So kind of the thing we discussed was, she said, If you're happy, I'm happy for you. And I'm going to try. That's it. That's all I needed to hear. That's it. That is acceptance for me and saying, I'm going to work on it. And I'm going to try. Yeah, and if you're happy, then I'm happy for you. And I still love you. That's it. It's very simple. I don't need anything, I don't need anything from you just, we're still going to have a relationship. She's struggling with my name, because that's the name she gave me. You know, and she feels betrayed somehow because I was not okay with that name. And I changed my name. She had these misconceptions in her mind that my 30 some years before I transitioned were just a waste and they were all horrible. You know, that's kind of what she thought in her mind.

So she was like, I can't believe I put you through all of that for all those years, and you are just miserable this whole time. And that's not correct, either. You know, but just ask, like, if you have a question, just ask me and I'll probably answer it, you know, to an extent but so acceptance to me is just, I still love you. Period. And I'm gonna try.

Susan: I'm so thankful that you had that conversation with her because that had been what a couple years almost.

Jack: Yeah. And it was I did it more for myself than I did it for her because at that point, you know, she was being very demanding the whole time that I came to talk to her face to face, she wouldn't talk to me on the phone. She didn't want to text me, she didn't want to FaceTime and she lives almost four hours away. So you know, some people think I caved and gave her what she wanted but I had to do it for myself because the constant up and down of the relationship was starting to have an effect on me personally. It was causing me some anxiety and some depression surrounding that and it constantly being a thing. Like, I always texted my mom, I texted her almost once a week, through the whole time that she was not speaking to me just to keep the lines open, because I didn't want to lose that relationship with my mom, we were always super close before that. And I just finally was like, I can't do this, you know, one day, she'd just be like, I'm fine. The next day, she would be ranting to me for two hours over text messages and just saying the nastiest things you can think of. And I was like, I can't do the up and down anymore. So I had to have that conversation for myself. Knowing that, I mean, it was gonna go one of two ways, either we were never going to have a relationship again, or we were going to move forward and try to make it work. So I had to do it for myself, though, because I just, I couldn't stay in this. It was like, we were in this limbo, where I didn't really know what was going on, or what was going to happen, or, and I just, I couldn't do that anymore. Wow. That's a lot. It is. And as a parent myself, it just was harder. For me even being a parent myself, it was hard, that made it even harder for me to wrap my head around, how could you do this to your kids, you know, when I am also a parent, and I just can't imagine being like, I don't want to talk to you ever again, because of who you are, you know, like, I just, I never could comprehend that I never could wrap my head around that part of it. But again, she had a lot of misconceptions and assumptions that weren't correct. She didn't know anything about transgender people. I don't, she was getting information from places she shouldn't be getting information. You know, so just a lack of communication.

Susan: Tell me a little bit about your journey as a trans man at work.

Jack: Yeah, so I do work for a bank, and I've been there for 10 years. So they all also knew me, obviously, before I transitioned. And I have great relationships with a lot of people there. And previous to myself transitioning, I had actually helped a couple other folks transition at work. So we don't, they didn't have a program there for that. So I had a couple folks come to me and say, Hey, I'm living my true self outside of work, but I just don't know how to do it here. So anybody listening, if you work at a big place, think about all the people that you talk to every day and think about having to tell that story to every single person that you come into contact with, right? So having to just say that 50 times, that would be exhausting. So what I did with our HR rep is we kind of just made a quick PowerPoint slideshow, we met with their team and kind of went over this is what it means to be transgender very low level basic stuff. And then just kind of said, This person is going to be transitioning as of Monday, this is their name, these are their pronouns. If you have questions, ask them now that the employee was not in the room at that time. So when I transitioned, then I already had that program in place, right? Because I helped make that. So then they did that for me. And I never had any problems. I had a couple people that slipped a couple times on a call that had no meaning for 10 years, as you know who I was before. And they just corrected themselves quickly and moved on. So it wasn't a big deal. I feel like the training must have gone well, because they kind of knew how to go forward with that kind of situation as well. So it's been great. I haven't had any issues.

Susan: And in South Dakota, it's very, very few organizations that would treat the situation with such care. But I find it interesting that you helped other people in your company before you knew that you were right. Transgender. Yeah. Interesting. Love it. Well, you already had the program and everything in place. So I love that. Yeah. What are some of the most challenging parts about being trans in South Dakota? Or being trans in general?

Jack: Yeah, I mean, just overall acceptance, I feel like in South Dakota is lower than probably a lot of other places. Especially in small-town, South Dakota, everybody knows who you are. Everybody wants to know what you're doing. And they all want to know your business and you know, people care too much. I think that sounds weird, but like, in a bad way, you know, in a bad way, like they care about what you're doing a little bit too much. Whereas if you were to go to California and walk down the street with a unicorn on your head, nobody would probably even turn an eye they wouldn't care. They would keep walking. They don't mean it. That is my overall like, that is my dream location to live as somewhere where I can just walk down On the street, and hold my wife's hand that are in look anyway, I look at that moment and not have to feel like I'm being judged or using the bathroom is probably one of the biggest pain points I've had as a trans person. It still is. And I think it makes it harder that I am still misgendered. So then I never feel like I'm man enough to pass when I go into the men's room because I still get misgendered no matter what I do. So that is probably one of the biggest pain points and knowing that that's a thing that people have an issue with in South Dakota also makes it painful. I've had some bad situations in bathrooms- in men's rooms that's made it difficult. So I would say that probably the hardest thing is just being in public and having to use the restroom. So I don't think it's something that a lot of people probably think about. But as a trans person, you think about where am I going? What kind of bathrooms do they have? Are they single stall bathrooms? Are they gender neutral bathrooms? How many times should I go to the bathroom before I leave my house just to maybe make sure that I don't learn to just not go to the bathroom for several hours, if you're just in a place where you don't feel like it's comfortable or safe. And I don't think people understand what that feels like. It's a very daunting thing sometimes. But even before I transitioned, I was very masculine presenting I had short hair, you know, so even going into the women's restroom for I don't know how many years was difficult because people would still look at me weird and then look at my chest and then be like, you may pass kind of like not say that out loud. But that's kind of the vibe that I got when I went in there.

Susan: Sure.

Jack: But I felt like after I transitioned, I was like I shouldn't be going in the women's room because I'm not a woman. I just felt like I didn't belong there. But other people don't think I belong in the men's room. So it's such a weird thing to have as somebody like just the world having so much control over, like, if you can go to the bathroom or not. It's such a weird thing. Like we're all in there to go to the bathroom.

Susan: We’re in there to do our business and wash our hands and wash our hands. Yes. I mean, yeah, it's really sad that people think otherwise. The last thing a trans person has on their mind is anything. Anything other than Yeah, I just need to get in here and go to the bathroom, wash my hands and get out as quickly as possible because it's not safe. And if you hear like for me, if I'm in the stall in the men's room, and I hear like three people come in, I wait to hear those three people walk out. Hope nobody else walks in, wash my hands and get out quickly. I try to get in and out without having any interaction with anybody. Yeah, just because it just feels so unsafe to me to have to come into contact with someone that maybe doesn't think I look man enough to be in there. And what are they going to do about it? You know?

Susan: Yeah, bathrooms are not safe spaces for trans people. Yeah, yet, cis people are worried about trans people in the bathroom. Right?

Jack: I've seen a lot of things about “I don't want my little girl to be in the bathroom with a man”. I'm like, “Well, that's not a man. That's a trans woman. That's a woman”. So that's the misconception. Right? They're in there to do something bad, when they're just in there to use the bathroom.

Susan:Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. So tell us about your interests, your hobbies. What kind of things do you like to do for fun? I was looking at your Facebook the other day and you had some great pictures of being out camping? Is that something you all do often?

Jack: That is probably our biggest thing that we do. We like to camp. We like to fish. We did get kayaks this year. I love football. That's like my number one thing that I am either camping or then the camping season then turns into football season.

Susan: So I remember trying to schedule a meeting with you and you're like anything is up Sunday afternoons because we're watching football.

Jack: Yeah, that's kind of a priority for me and my youngest son. I just got him signed up for football. And we went and picked up all his equipment last night. It was a really big moment for me because I was so excited. I'm like, finally I get out parents to watch one of my kids play football.

Susan: And they're probably going to be like, Hey, do you want to coach? I mean, we need an extra hand.

Jack: Yeah, they do. They do ask anybody who wants to hang out and help coach but yeah, we'll see. We'll see if it gets to that point. I just hope he likes it. He's never played flag football. So this will be his first year with tackles. Oh, so I hope he likes it. So we can, so I can be a football dad, like on the sidelines cheering him on. I'm excited. But yeah, we like to camp and we just like to travel in general, but I don't like flying. So I will drive literally anywhere. I do not enjoy flying at all. So last year we went to Montana and then did like Yellowstone and all that we drove the camper there. And then the year before that, we went to Texas and back with the camper. And so yeah, a well traveled family. That's like mine and Sherry’s long-term goal: to sell our house and live out of a camper and just travel and see the world and live our best lives on the road.

Susan: One of the first things we learn as children as toddlers is to label things and to give something a name or to put it in a group or to separate things. And you know, this is a boy, this is a girl. This is good. This is bad. So I think a lot of times people still want to label you and want to know, you know, well, how do you identify? And I wanted to talk to you about that, as far as relationships go, and you know, you're married to a woman. And you've been married to her back when, you know, people thought that you were a woman as well. So tell us about how you identify and what that all means and just share it all.

Jack: Yeah. So I mean, it's something that I think is more interesting for other people to know than it is for us to know ourselves sometimes, like, we just know that we love this person, or we're attracted to this person. And that's kind of all that matters for us. Like we don't, we weren't concerned about “what are we now”. What does this make me, or what does this make you? I mean, I'm married to a cisgender woman and we both identified as lesbians when we were first dating, and when we got married. And now that I have transitioned, she identifies as pansexual. But people kind of struggled with that they're like, well, you're just you are gay. And now you're not all of a sudden, like, how does that work out? Right?

Susan: I'm gonna stop you here for a second and just, you know, share a couple of vocab words.

Cisgender is someone who is born and assigned a certain gender at birth and identifies with that gender still today. And then can you kind of share a little bit about what being pansexual means?

Jack: So

pansexual is that you're just attracted to a person you're not attracted to their gender. So that can really mean you know, you're you're you're just attracted to everyone because we are not attracted to everyone but you could be attacked Good to everyone.

Susan: So anybody, you know, you're, you're basically not attracted to like maybe like their gender or their looks right? You're attracted to who they are as a person. Right. Okay.

Jack: And that was kind of, I think that she came to that conclusion, because when I first came out to her as being transgender, she struggled with it for a couple of weeks. And ultimately, what she realized was, I love this person. I didn't fall in love with you, because of your gender, I fell in love with you because of who you are. And you're still that person. So that really was all of a sudden, she had this thought, two weeks after. That was her thinking. And she's like, “why am I being weird about this? Like, this is still my spouse, this is still the person I love. They're still the same person. Why would I feel any differently just because of their gender?”. Right? So that's really what it came down to. But a lot of people were like, What are you? Are you this? Are you that whatever? And yeah, everybody really thought about it. Yeah, they're like, but I need to know, like, they need you, they have to put you in a box somewhere, right? Just like, for example, if you have two women that are married, a lot of people will say, well, which one's the man and which one's the woman? Because in their minds, they need to put you in some sort of a box to make it make sense for them. They can't just wrap their heads around. We're both women that are married to each other. They have to be like, which one is which? You know what I mean? Because that's how they compartmentalize you and be like, Okay, well, now I'm okay with it. Because I know which ones doing this and which ones doing this? Right. So I think that's why people are so like, well, what are you? What are you identifying?

Susan: I mean, we've been doing this since we were kids, putting people in boxes. And I'm, I'm seeing more and more that, you know, the youth now the younger people, people in middle school high school are like, “Don't put me in a box”.

Jack: Yeah, like, I, there's no reason I need to be in a box at all, or have a certain label that you always thought that I should have. So yeah, even things like so when we when our kids were younger, and we would take them to McDonald's, and they would get happy meals. Right? So they say, Well, do you want a boy or girl toy? Yeah, well, one of my boys at that time was really into My Little Pony. And that's what the girl toy was. And then the other one was like a car or something. And I would give them a little tiny mini lecture at the drive thru window. Like, how about you just say, Do you want a car? Or do you want a party or a Barbie or whatever? Like, like, why is one for girls and one is for boys? You know what I mean? Because then my boy is like, well, is that okay? For me to get that guy? Because it's the girl's toy? Yes. It's okay. It's a toy period. It's not like oh, and I still see it like on Facebook marketplace. People are like girls' bedding sets or boys' backpacks or you know, like, why can't it just be about a bed or backpack? You know, why does it have to be gender specific?

Susan: We're so gendered. Yeah, in the United States. I mean, this and so much of it is marketing. Right? Like, if you look back, you know, pink used to be a color that boys would wear. Until, you know, people started making money off of like, pink versus blue. Blue is the color for boys. So yeah, we dealt with that at McDonald's as well. When we would go through the drive thru. I was like, I Yeah, we I and I think by then they had said something like, boy do you have a boy or girl? Yeah, like something like that. And I was like, Oh, this is a nightmare. Yeah, like it gives me anxiety to go through a drive thru.

Jack: But that's how that's how it's just that's just how we have grown up. I mean, you 've all been since birth, put in some kind of a box depending on what kind of genitalia you have, basically. Yeah. That's that, that chooses what what you're going to play with and dress in and you know, and a lot of trans people go through a lot of like, a lot of trans men will over masculinize the they kind of feel like they have to overdo things and I was guilty of it myself when I first came out like is this man enough? Or what did that look like for you? I mean, even things like I was just speaking about earlier when we took a picture to celebrate our first podcast recording, like, how do I smile now? Do I smile like a man or is my smile too feminine? Just simple things like that, that most people will just be like, Why does that even matter? It's just something like when you're a trans man, you just feel like you have to be over the top with everything you do so that people are very aware that You're a man.

Susan: So basically like, having perceived you as a man, right? Like, as masculine as possible. Yeah.

Jack: Like, don't do anything that may look feminine, right? Don't wear anything that might look feminine. Because then you're not gonna look man enough, and somebody's gonna question it, and then you're gonna get misgendered. And it just leads to a whole thing.

Susan: Yeah, I've seen several trans men that have really gotten into bodybuilding and, and I've wondered like is that to try to appear as masculine as possible?

Jack: It isn't, a lot of it is to change your, it's very hard to change your body shape without doing things like that. So if you make your upper body look bigger, it makes your lower body look smaller.

Susan: Gotcha.

Jack: So as a man, you're not supposed to have wide hips, you're supposed to have wide shoulders. So then that's something that you do to change your appearance to look more like. So these are things that you think about, you know, on a daily basis like, do I look man enough to go do this? Right. And being short, obviously, is another thing that yeah, you know, men probably struggle with that, too. Oh, for sure, yeah. Or being too tall. If you're a trans woman, maybe that's a thing that you would struggle with. So there's just so many things that, you know, you don't really think of until you're kind of going through it. And then you're like, Okay, I don't really need to act like this. I can just be myself and, you know, but it takes time to get there to get comfortable with yourself enough to have enough confidence to just kind of be you. And, you know, whatever happens happens, I guess.

Susan: Did you ever think of leaving South Dakota to kind of have an easier transition or an easier life somewhere else?

Jack: I have thought about it. But I do have, you know, reasons why I can't leave South Dakota, I do have kids that we have shared custody with and things like that. So we are pretty much here, you know, for the foreseeable future. But I know it would be easier in other places, like I've said before, if I could just walk down the street and know that nobody cares who I am, that would be ideal for me. But since I am here, I'm trying to be visible and be out for other trans folks that live here, especially kids so that they can see that, you know, you can live here and be happy, you can have a life, you can have a career, you can have kids, you can have a spouse, you can thrive, you don't have to hide, you don't have to live in a corner somewhere. And just because of who you are, just because of where we live, it's okay to kind of keep living your life. And we'll keep fighting the fight. And hopefully, we can make it better for those that are going to come behind us.

Susan: Yeah, I appreciate you being willing to be so open about your story, because there are not a lot of trans people that do end up staying in South Dakota with their families to have a life because it is so challenging here. So thank you for, you know, being willing to share openly and vulnerably about your past, about your present, about what you want for the future. And I would ask you that, what do you see for the future? And what do you want for our state? You know, what kind of things would you like to see changed?

Jack: Well, obviously, I would like to see, you know, all of these bills that are attacking trans kids to just not have to be a thing anymore. I would like the kids to just be able to wake up and be a kid and not have to, you know, protest on a Sunday afternoon or every time the legislative season starts that, you know, kids aren't strict. We're struggling with anxiety, and what rights are going to be taken away from me now and checking to see how quickly they can leave. I mean, I have two of my three kids that don't want to live here that are already talking about leaving when they can they're not transgender, they're not but they have me as a parent, and they're just like, you know, and because of, like you said, kids are different now than they were when we were kids. Right? These kids are like, I'm not gonna put up with that. Like, yeah, I want to be mean no matter what that looks like, and I want that to be okay. And I hope my hope is that South Dakota can somehow make a change so that we can be more accepting and more inviting to everybody. Because I think one of the big things about living in South Dakota it's always Oh moved to a small town in South Dakota where everybody's your neighbor and everybody's your friend and you know, everybody can just get together and have these big barbecues every weekend and they'll bring you a casserole when you know you're going to have the Welcome Wagon knocking on your door and it's not like that if you're not what they consider normal. If you're not, if you don't fit in that perfect box. So I think if South Dakota wants to be that place, they definitely couldn't be that place. But you know, a lot of changes need to be made, people need to step up, people need to get out and vote. People need to make their voices heard, we we all need to help out, we all need to do our part to make the change, I think,

Susan: Well, I think part of helping make that change is visibility of trans people in our communities. And that's one reason we wanted to start this podcast was to lift up the voices of trans South Dakotans and to, you know, hopefully share stories that would, would help people understand that you're just a person trying to live their life and trying to make the world a better place as well. So I think as we as we look to the future in South Dakota, you know, I see a lot of people leaving the state, a lot of young people that don't see a future here, because they don't feel accepted for who they are, or who their friends are, and they may want to move somewhere that is more accepting. So hopefully, we can, you know, increase some visibility here so that people can start to get to know their trans neighbors, and start to understand that, that they need to start learning more about them and the issues that they may face and start standing up for them and advocating for them as far as just being a friend. I mean, that's, that's one thing I hear from trans people so often is that they lose their community when they come out. Kind of like you, you lost a lot of your extended family relationships. And we see people that lose their friends or their church community or their families as well. And it's a very lonely experience to go through. So we need more people to be neighborly like South Dakota is known for. But to be neighborly in a way of getting to know your trans friends, relatives, community members on a very personal basis, so that you can figure out what you could do to make their lives a little bit easier. And I think, you know, one thing I've learned, as the parent of a trans kid, is that it's all day, every day. There's always something to plan for, or think about or to, you know, consider this scenario or this place we're going, you know, it's one of those things where you lose a lot of sleep. And you, you definitely need people in your corner.

Jack: For sure. Yeah, and unfortunately, these aren't, it's not like our stories are unique in any way. There's so many more people in this state that have the same story that I have are the same story that you have, you know, having a trans child and trying to figure out how to navigate all that. So, you know, that's why I think it's important to be visible, because I know there's other people out there that need to be, they need to feel like they're being heard, they need to feel like they belong. So yeah, I think it's great that you're willing to share your story too.

Susan: What would you say someone could do to be supportive, or to, you know, support trans people around the state?

Jack: Well, educate yourself, I would say, if you don't understand it, try to figure it out. Try to, you know, check out some websites that are reputable resources for the LGBTQ plus community and just educate yourself. What does it mean to be transgender, you can look that up. And then you will know.

Susan: Yeah, our website is one of those places, for sure. I'll link that in the show notes. But there are websites that will do the job of teaching you, you don't have to call a trans person. Although I know several trans people that would be very thankful to be able to share their stories and educate, educate the community. Anything else that you would suggest for people to become supportive?

Jack: I mean, it just depends on what your level of support looks like. That could just be educating yourself. But with doing that, you also have to kind of take it upon yourself sometimes to educate others. Or if you see something, say something, if you hear something that's not correct, it's okay to say hey, actually, and you can do that in a non confrontational way. I never want to make somebody feel attacked or I never want to make somebody feel bad. If they don't know, then they don't know. You know it until you tell them they're not going to know any different so a lot of people say they're allies, but they don't really understand what it means to be an ally and it's okay to look that up too. So If you just say, Well, I don't really care what other people do, that's not really being an ally, that's just kind of being whatever. If you hear somebody saying something negative about a transgender person standing up for that person and saying, actually, this is actually this is accurate. This is what actually is the case, that's being an ally standing up for what's right. You know, vote. Yeah, that's also a big one. Anything you can do to educate yourself and educate others, I think is going to be helpful. Yeah, at this point, I would say, you know, educating ourselves is super important, but there's so much misinformation out there right now. And there are people out there who are taking it upon themselves to put out media that really shares false information about transgender individuals, and it's very prevalent right now. We're seeing this, it's kind of a big push of a culture war. Transgender rights and and just even being transgender is like the thing that people are talking about. So it's important to look for reputable sources, you know, sources that actually work with the LGBTQ plus community. And, you know, instead of maybe the Facebook news or other news that you may be getting to, to just really check your sources.

Susan: Yep, I agree. Yeah, I think we can maybe link to some things, for sure. Yeah, I guess Yeah. can have some good and resources. Anything else you would want to share before we head out?

Jack: I don't think so.

Susan: It's been fun to spend this time with you, too. We'll get to know you a little bit more as we go through sharing stories of other trans South Dakotans and just appreciate your sharing your story with us. Very moving and very thankful to know you. Thanks, you too. Thank you so much for taking some time out of your day to spend with us. You can find out more about our organization at Transformation Project sd.org. And on all the socials at “SDtransformproj”. If you have questions, thoughts or opinions or have someone in mind who may like to share their story with us, email us at podcast@transformationprojectsd.org. If this episode has been helpful to you in any way, we hope that you'll share it with those in your circle.

Jack: There are so many great resources available if you happen to be struggling with suicidal thoughts. You can head to the Trevor project.org Or you can call and text 988 and you will be connected to trained counselors that will listen and understand how your problems are affecting you, provide support and connect you to the resources needed if necessary.

Susan: Thanks again for joining us. We'll see you next week.

There are so many great resources available if you happen to be struggling with suicidal thoughts. You can head to the Trevorproject.org Or you can call and text 988 and you will be connected to trained counselors that will listen understand how your problems are affecting you provide support and connect you to the resources needed if necessary.

Hosts: Jack Fonder & Susan Williams

Producer: Susan Williams

Audio Engineer: Cheese

Graphic Design: Carly Schultz

Music: Niklas Peters

Niklas is a musician, artist, and organizer based in occupied Očhéthi Šakówiŋ land. They are a founding member of the South Dakota Women and Trans Musicians Network. When they are not creating music or art, Niklas can be found hiking or camping, walking their dog, or enjoying a meal with friends. They work as a Campaign Coordinator for Clean, Renewable Energy for the Western Organization of Resource Councils. (Website - Instagram)