Episode 4: “Jane”

In our fourth episode, we speak with Jane about being genderqueer and how family, friends and her workplace dealt with her coming out as transgender. Jane lives in Sioux Falls, SD, and works full-time an Engineer and is the parent to two children.

TW: Suicide

Jack: Thanks, Susan. So one of the things we're going to talk about today is something called Gender dysphoria.

Gender Dysphoria is a condition where a person experiences discomfort or distress, because there's a mismatch between their biological sex and their gender identity.

Susan: All right, thanks, Jack. So let's get started with Jane,

Jane: What little whispers are going to happen over though, you know, coffee pot in the break room?

Jack: Because that still happens. That's not like it sounds like high school. But that's exactly how it is in the workplace, especially in big places. Exactly. I’m in South Dakota.

Jane: Yeah, I mean, everybody knows everybody.

Susan: We see this so much, where people are not really going to tell you to your face, hear what they think. But they are going to tell their friends, their neighbors, their family, you know, everything that you know, behind your back. And so that has to be kind of unnerving to know that, you know, there might be something shared about you that, you know, don't necessarily need to be shared, or that you're going to be constantly outed by someone. You don't even need to be like that doesn't need to be the first thing that people know about you.

Jane: Exactly. The first thing people need to know about me as I'm hilarious, like, you are like, Thank you like, but I mean, like, it's like, I don't know if like I think and again, like that's exactly like you just said, I mean, it is just like, I don't think about this, this is like such a footnote into like just this little thing that I had to do.

Jack: And it's such a small piece of who we are as people. Exactly. Like people forget that. Yeah, we're all where people have all of their there's all the things about our personality. We're not just a transgender person, we're all kinds of things, but it’s a big deal to everybody else. Yeah. And I think like that's, that's the thing that again, I don't want to say like, I'm scared off because again, like I am, I like who I am. And I'm comfortable with who I am.

Susan: So Jane, share with us a little bit about your identity, how you identify and your pronouns.

Jane: So my name is Jane, my pronouns are she her hers, and they them. I would identify I think as trans woman, but more kind of gender queer as I explore. I would say as I get more comfortable in my gender, I think like the line kind of gets blurry, a little bit.

Susan: Yeah, we've heard that from other folks that, you know, they've been able to just expand on their gender, because they've felt confident in who they are. And now they're able to kind of explore things. So can you maybe share with us a little bit about what does genderqueer mean? I don't know if a lot of people know that language. What does that mean to you?

Jane: So I think that what that means to me is that I, while I think I identify with women more, and I would see myself like as a woman, I think that there are a lot of, quote, unquote, like an of course, this is all just, I think societal words and lingo and everything like that. But like, I think I kind of start to, maybe I don't want to put this like, um, gender isn't that important to me. And I think like, that's what genderqueer means to me, where it's like, I feel comfortable and empowered, like within my body and my presentation. So I don't think about gender anymore. So and that's kind of where that line for me kind of blurs sometimes where it's like, I like all sorts of clothes, and I like all sorts of presentations and things like that. Um, so I guess personally, that's like, what it mean to me, like being genderqueer is me just not really caring about gender. So I love that. Yeah. Great. Thanks.

Susan: So share with us a little bit about your journey. Maybe going back to when you felt like something was different or you you felt like oh, maybe you might be transgender, or maybe you might be queer.

Jane: I think um, it started. I mean, earliest memories I have were of those feelings. So I'm going to age myself like I'm 41.

Susan: So you're not the oldest person in the room. Okay. You're one like two years older than Jack right?

Jack: Almost 40 I will be 40 this year. So congratulations.

Jane: Oh my gosh I think I was an 80’s kid and I grew up kind of all over America, a lot of my time was spent in the South. Um, I was raised by two uneducated southerners, more or less. They were middle school sweethearts that pumped out four kids by the time they were like 27. And I didn't know any queer people in my life, really, ever until college. So again, like I was born in 1980. My earliest memories are feelings of like, disconnect, I would say because again, kind of like raised in the south, like southern Kansas sometime in like North Carolina. In the 80s I think that gender was very important to a lot of people in my life. So almost like force presentations, like, behavior was moderated. And I would even say toys and taste were something that were like, incredibly, like moderated in my life. Um, so my earliest memories are this just this like feeling of, I think discontent with or maybe not just discomfort with, I think how I was being forced to present myself. Or like how, again, like my interest or tastes, were really being kind of geared towards one direction. Um, but I never had the language to necessarily ever describe that. Um, one of my earliest memories is, so my mom is one of, I think, five, five sisters and her family altogether. Um, so her youngest sister was in high school when I was born was a cheerleader, so she used to dress me up in like, cheerleading outfits. Like do the makeup and like, wow, yeah, you know, crimp hair and all that jazz. Yes. So like, all of that was stuff that I don't even want to say like, was I like, felt like, oh, this is it. But it was like, oh, this is like, this is fun. This like, feels good.

Jack: Didn’t feel weird to you odd.

Jane: Yeah, bingo. It didn't feel weird or odd. Um, so I'd say the those feelings of again. You know, kind of like going against that moderation. Were some of my like, earliest memories. I went to college, I moved to South Dakota in high school, basically, right before high school. went to Catholic High School on top of that, and boy, was that fun. That was really conducive for in the 90’s for being a warm, welcoming place for queer identity is something saying that obviously. So again, like college, after college, I went to Brookings to SDSU. No queer people. I didn't meet my first queer person until I was 20 years old living in Minneapolis.

Susan: Wow. And it just wasn't safe yet to come out…at college. I mean, there were queer people there, they just were not out.

Jane: Oh my gosh, that's such a better way to put it. I did not know any out queer people, right. Like nobody in my life and talked about them.

Jack: Exactly. Not in a good way.

Jane: Exactly. So. And of course, it's like, there's always like, whispers, you know what I mean? It's like, she's someone so you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So even like, when I was a kid, everybody, like identified me as like, a gay dude, you know, and it's like, I don't think that's right. Like, I know, that doesn't feel right to me. But again, like those whispers, you know, I feel like a lot of like, my narrative and story was like, driven, or like, how I felt about myself was really driven by other people. Yeah, up until I was like, kind of empowered with language to really understand what I think queer identities, or trans identities or anything like that, like really meant. I'm 20 years old living in Minneapolis, and even at that point, especially trans identities, were something that were still this was, you know, 2000-2001 was still something that was so um, I would say, it wasn't like it is today, right where it was still so driven by sensationalism, or like, any trans misinformation and yeah, exactly. I didn't even hear the word transgender until I was 34-35. Like before that it was all of these kinds of negative. I would describe them as like fairly like negative connotations.

Jack: Exactly, because they were usually slurs made as well.

Jane: Yeah. Um, so again, like just kind of really floated through life really kind of feeling this disconnect in this like discontent, but never really being able to pinpoint it until I was like 34 years old and hopped on YouTube and actually, like started reading about like trans stories and trans identity is one of them. That was also the time when there was a high school trans girl that completed suicide. And she published her suicide note on Tumblr, like after she had completed it. And that that moment, like, to me, it was like, I think the first time I remember reading a story, and like a trans person's words that like, oh my gosh, like that. That's me, that feels like it. Exactly. Yeah. And then just through like self education and empowerment, and honestly, it was like the internet like YouTube and like Google, and just like really hearing trans stories from like, trans people's, like mouths themselves that weren't sensationalized that weren't, I mean, just there for like, shock value, or, you know, what I mean, like, Nielsen ratings, or something like that. That was like, that was, I think, where it was like, Oh, this is something that can be quiet, if that makes sense. Like, oh, like, there's a trans woman. That's a mom of two kids, right? And her house looks like mine. And like, she listens to the same music as me. And it's, it's, she's not living this crazy, extravagant life. But it's just like a trans person living a quiet, almost like normal life.

Jack: Yeah, if that makes sense.

Jane: That was the thing, I think that finally kind of flipped that switch for me. And then, um, found a good support group and network here in South Dakota, and I didn't even meet my first trans person or, you know, out and like, trans person that I knew, that identify that way until I had already I think, um, you know, kind of come out to myself, because once I like, figured it out, then I kind of saw it, community. And so I didn't mean again, like, another trans person until I actually, quote unquote, like, figured it out.

Susan: So I have so many questions. One of them is, what was the reaction of people that you were close to when you shared your truth with them, and when you, you know, basically, like, had to do all that emotional labor of trying to explain it to the people that love you.

Jane: So I'm going to break that up into like, kind of two lanes, right. And you had said, like, people that love me. So I think that love is love to me as action. Um, it's not just something that is love isn't a default, you know, so there was people in my life that I think should have loved me. But when I came out, and actions were very clear that like, that is not an action or your action of love. My parents, especially like within that, um, whereas like my friend group, the people that do love me and are still in my life. Everybody was like, oh, that makes sense. They were shocked. Like, okay, cool. Yeah, I can see that. Yeah, that is like, seriously, it was like, oh, like I you know, unconsciously, you know, one of my good friends, Nicole, like, it was one of the first people I told because I think I wanted to, you know, first of all, like, I did not want, I was very careful about I think who I told it first, you know, I think transition for me was a marathon and not a sprint. I wanted to do it thoughtfully. Um, I'm also a parent of two kids. Like, at that point, my youngest was, oh my gosh, like, I mean, six months old or less, I think when I had kind of, you know, started to like, really figure it out. Um, so I really wanted to be thoughtful about it. And then knowing, you know, just kind of where we live in South Dakota. And I think knowing that my family and certain member people in my life that have known me the longest we're going to have a problem with it. I was very careful about who I told it first. Yeah. And seriously, one of my friends, Nicole, like, it was just like, yeah, that makes sense. Everything. Everything I know about shocked about everything I know about you now, like, yes, like that completely makes sense. And I got that reaction from so many people. And I mean, in hindsight, It's like, well, I wish you would have told me that I was!

Susan: How did it make you feel? Hearing those things?

Jane: Just like really, um, I think validated. Because I think that being trans obviously isn't a decision. Like, it wasn't a decision for me to be trans but transition or like, I think what taking that step, taking the steps, like that was the choice like living authentically and not being miserable in my life, and honestly, not being suicidal, and not taking all of my anger out on people around me. That was the choice to like live authentically was the choice. The identity was not.

Susan: Yeah, I think that there are some misconceptions. I think that people think that in order to be trans, you have to have surgeries, and you have to live a certain way. And what I think is so important that you just brought to the conversation is that you don't choose to be transgender, you don't do anything to be transgender, you just are transgender, and what you what you do with that is your personal decision, right, or, you know, every trans person is going to maybe do things differently and have a different journey. But just, you know, even people that are transgender, they don't have to do any transition.

Jane: It’s like you said, it's gonna be different for everybody's journey. I mean, that’s the narrative. So talking about just to kind of, you know, hearing people's hearing trans people's experiences through their own mouth. That was the thing that to your point, like Susan, like, finally, I think also helped me with it, because the trans narratives that I had been fed, again, like, up to this point, it was like, very like, linear, you know, XYZ, you know what I mean, you do this, and then you do this, and then you do this, and, and it was very, um, but again, it was, it's sensationalized media. And that's what we were being told. And once I think I was empowered to actually hear different community members experiences, and this is how they experienced gender. This is how, you know, kind of what they chose to do. Um, yeah, exactly. That was the thing that I think kind of put me on the path of like, discovery. And that's why I think I, you know, again, personally, subjectively, like I wanted to do it very thoughtfully. Because I think exploring my gender has been one of the most. It can be isolating at times, but it's also been one of the funnest, most beautiful, like, experiences I think I've ever, I don't know.

Jack: Yeah, because you're like finding yourself all over again.

Jane: And, yeah, it is fun. It is kind of fun messing with people sometimes like those. Like, honestly, those early stages of like, transition where I was like, on hormones for like, six months. And again, like, all my friends were like, Well, that makes sense. So again, I have cisgender, like, presenting privilege. So a lot of people don't know that I'm trans unless I, you know, specifically tell them. Um, so yeah, it's gender to me is like, very fun. And it can be like, very fun. I remember like, being in like, Disneyland with my family. And just like people, like, who is this person, you know, like, I would like be sitting down at dinner. And just like, in the matter of five minutes, have, you know, all of these pronouns thrown at me by all of these service industry people? Like that, to me is fun, like, that was, I don't know, like, it's, it was really fun to kind of, like, I think, go through that and kind of experience that I think it's a very, like, nuanced, nuanced. I don't know, like, human experience that not a lot of people get to go through. So I don't know. Yeah.

Jack: Love it. I'm just like, I was kind of just sitting here, like in awe, because your story is, like, it's very similar to my story. And maybe that's because we both were born in the early 80s. We both like, never knew that this was like a thing. And I to like, went to this conference and heard a trans person speak and was like, that's me. And everything then made sense, you know, but I was also like, in my late 30s. And so I guess, how did that affect? Like, how did you deal with those kinds of things like with your kids and your relationships, did anything change or everything stay the same?

Jane: Um, my kids, so my, my oldest is 10. Now and at the time, they were, I think three going on four. And it was, and this is okay. So, and they were going to like, like daycare here. They had like a daycare facility. So I mean, a lot of other kids and parents and everything like that. What was the most fascinating thing to me is like, kids get it. Every kid in my life got it, where it was like, okay, you know, I told my kid like, this is kind of what's happening and you know, kind of, you know, taking, it's trying to use words that like, again, like a three, four year old would understand and using, you know, very at the time, like binary language. But, but they got it right away, you know, and it was something that for my kids, it was like, okay, you know, well, that makes sense. Cool. All of their friends, all of their friends got it to every one of their friends. It was like, so great.

Jack: We could learn so much. Yeah, kids.

Jane: Oh my gosh, right. But it's their parents. Yeah. Like, once, once that influence entered in, and like, there was noticeable, like differences in that where it's like, oh, I can tell that, you know, when I go to pick up my kids from daycare, or whatever, and there'd be some kid that was cool with it two days ago. And then it's like, they come back and then just like, throw some, you know, transphobic stuff like, right at me. And it's like, like, you talked to mom and dad. Yeah. No, you know, so most my kids in their friend group, it was like a non non-problem. Everybody got it. A majority of my friend group did too. But I also have the privilege of like, I roll with a pretty cool crew. And like, they are kind and thoughtful. And my friend group is my family. And like, they're my chosen family. And I chose them for a reason. And to be honest, like, anybody that didn't get on board can kick rocks. Like, that's, that's kind of how I looked at it is kind of, like, take it or leave it, you know, and if you choose not to, like, want me in your life, then that's your loss and not mine. So anyway, so I don't know. I think that's a good way to think about it, because they are really missing out on something beautiful. Yeah. I'm just not like me personally. But it's like, oh, my gosh, my community is just glorious. I mean, it's beautiful and glorious. And I know some of the most like intelligent, smart, beautiful, thoughtful people are within my community. And it's just so ya know, that's like, kind of how I think most people took it. And that's, you know, honestly, why I think I also wanted to be thoughtful, I think about it, just kind of like, take it slow to make sure that I really had a chance to, like, hold on to and reflect on the relationships that I wanted to keep.

Jane: Yeah, can you tell us a little bit about your journey with your job? Yeah, and how that happened, I think a lot of people don't understand what it would be like to have to deal with that in an organization or go to work, you know, one day, as you know, with this name, and this pronoun, and then the next week, had to work with a new name and a new pronoun. And then, you know, Jack, you can share a little bit about your experience as well.

Jack: So I am a woman in STEM, which means I do engineering work. And so that is incredibly small field in South Dakota anyway. Um, so I think my experience with work was mostly positive, but all of the education component, like, was on my shoulders to a degree. So and again, just like I took it, fairly slow. Um, that was my decision to make. And, and again, people at work started work was the last, the last place that I told that was literally the very last thing that I did, um, family, new friends, you know, is living, I think authentically for almost like six months before I came out at work. Um, and again, like, I have the privilege of being fairly cisgender presenting. So again, what had happened at work was people started, I think, to figure it out before I told them because like, oh, like, that person does not look like the picture on their badge anymore. Um, but I, you know, I'm, I worked I work in a larger company, as well. So I mean, we have an HR department, a fairly large HR department. Um, there was some, you know, LGBT protections built in to like company policy and stuff like that. So I mean, for me, it was like, I had HR full support, and again, like doing doing this at work, um, but the, I don't want to say the problem, but the burden fell on my shoulders to do the education piece to it. So basically, it was like an email went out to almost 1,000 People that was like, this person is going to come in as this person. And then like one day, like you had said, Susan, I just like have to, like show up. And like, and there goes the email on a four o'clock on Friday show up at eight o'clock on Monday. And it's like, hey, yeah, let me get my, you know, new picture taken. Like, oh, my God, but again, it was like, you know, I mean, again, kind of, like thoughtful about, like, who we, who I communicated that to, because my direct team was probably three people. So I worked really close with like, you know, myself and three other people. They knew two days before that email went out. And again, it was like, two people are like, oh, that makes sense. I don't shock anyone here. Come on. Yeah, exactly. But like, ah, but again, like, the broader email communication goes out. And then for, I would say, a couple of years after that. I mean, it was a lot of questions and a lot of, you know, to be honest with you a lot of like, still like misgendering, and dead naming to a degree, but all of that has kind of kind of resolved itself. I think, again, like as I you know, again, like, kind of played with gender and got more comfortable in the identity and all of these things.

Susan: And how long ago was it that you came out at work?

Jane: It was 2017. Okay, um, yeah, so, came out to most like friends and family, it was like, 2016 work was 2017. And this is, and this is also I think, just like part of like, trans identity, or just like, my trans identity and journey is. I'd tried out a name for like, three years, but I didn't like so I just, like flipped it again. And I was like, no, like, I'm going to change name again. Because I want to try that out. Right. I didn't like it. I don't feel like that's me. So that was it was almost like to coming out, like a word. Like just kidding. Okay, like, everybody got this one down. But now we're gonna see how you do on this one. Exactly. So I mean, like work. I mean, it was like a fairly like positive experience. And honestly, it's like, I am one of the only, I mean, I think I am the only out trans person that I know, at my job. I'm one of the only out like queer people that I know at my job. But again, like I work for a large company. So I mean, the people that I interface with, like day to day. Um, so like work was kind of like, good, because I had the protections built into place. It's not like I could get fired for it, right? At the same time, all of the education component was on design. So that was like, that's the only thing that was like, which I think is pretty common in this area is for the education piece to kind of fall on the trans person. And then if you're not like, really an emotional space to really deal with that, and I think a lot of trans people are like, I'm just not going to come out at work, because it's going to be, it's just going to be mentally exhausting. Yeah. Because you're already going through so much. And it's like, and that's the health insurance. And that's the livelihood.

Jack: Yeah, like, literally, we spend so much time of your life at work, you really need to be able to feel Yeah, comfortable there. And that's like, I like my job. I love my job. I mean, I didn't want to lose my job. I really enjoy the work that I do. Um, so that was the other thing that would, I think, was just kind of, like scary, and like, slightly exhausting. Because, you know, after a little while, it's like, oh, my gosh, who am I going to have to say what to and what meeting today? You know, like, I mean, that all just got so that leaves out saying, oh my gosh, yeah, exhausting. So yeah, it has to be really stressful to you know, you're working, you're doing your work, you're dealing with regular family life, you're dealing with the world and everything that everybody deals with, but then someone misgendered you, or you have to explain why dead naming someone is not appropriate. That's so much on your shoulders in you probably were just kind of, I would assume just anxious. Like, okay, who's who's gonna say something today? Or what am I, how am I gonna have to go about that? Right? That fear and like, and this is again, my privilege today, like, I don't really exist with that fear anymore. But at the beginning, especially, yeah, those first couple of years, like, that's exactly what it is like, what am I going to walk into today? Um, I would I would like describe that as like low level anxiety. Yeah, like it was just like this low level is kind of there all the time. Like that perpetuated. Literally, like 24/7 unless I was in like, safe spaces with friends, but even you know, outside of the job, like I'm going into Ace Hardware and I just need To buy leaf bags. Yeah, like rake up my leaves. And that again, like that low level anxiety, like, what is going what is going to happen to me even just with this interaction? Like I think, Susan that it wasn't even like a fear?

Jack: Because I mean, it was I get what you're saying it's like anxiety is there? Exactly. You're just always like kind of little bit cautious or well, you're on edge. Yeah, like, you're always just kind of like, oh, how's this gonna go today or you've never been to this spot before around these people. And I actually, it's kind of interesting you say that about going to work and having that little bit. So I actually transitioned during COVID. And I was working at home, so I didn't have to, like, be face to face with anyone at work. Right? They all knew that I was transitioning that was communicated to them, but I didn't have to be face to face. And then yesterday, I had to go in to the bank for a couple of meetings that were mandatory to be on site for and I was sitting there waiting for the next meeting to start. And all of a sudden, this wave of anxiety, just like it just hit me all of a sudden, that there might be people there that knew me before I transition that might see me now. And they might misgendered me or dead-name me or maybe they're just gonna ignore me altogether, because they don't know what to do. And I like had this little like moment of panic. And I was like, oh my gosh, what am I going to do? You know, like, I wanted to just run and leave, you know, but I was like, okay, this is my job, I need to stay, I need to be at this meeting. And I just I reached out to a friend quick on Snapchat and was like, hey, this is what's going on. And they were like, you know, they gave me some little like words to kind of get me out of that some like positive words. And you know, you have this, don't worry about what they think you just be you and stay cool. Yeah, that's all I needed to just kind of get out of that. So I get what you're saying. And it didn't even occur to me when I got there. But then, like, all of a sudden, it just, like, hit me. And I was like, Oh my gosh, I just wanted to run as fast as I could out of there. So let's still, you know, after, you know, I've been transitioning for over two years now, but it still is like, sometimes it's still there. You know?

Jane: Yeah, I, um, you know, we're a larger company. So to and this had happened, like I, you know, came out at work 2017. So pushing, you know, five, six years ago. But not that we have a lot of turnover there. But there's some people that were that still I work with that. Remember, you know what I mean? Like all the different all the different versions of myself, like I would say like, whereas like new people that come in, you know, just you exactly. And I wouldn't say like, it's a fear anymore. But again, like, I don't think about my gender. Hardly ever like anymore. Like honestly, except with like situations, almost like like that, because it's like, okay, like, this person doesn't know me, or has just met me, right. But this person that's known me for a decade, you know, what I mean? Like, what information is going to be shared? Yeah. And what information are they going to get and want? And you know what I mean? Like, I think just, I think that's also one of the beautiful things about being trans sometimes is like, I do get to, you know, like, challenge people, I get to mess with service industry, people when I'm sitting at a restaurant just to see, like, if I sit different, well, this way to refer to me differently than this, you know, like, that's fun, and it's like, beautiful, and I get to like, do all those things. So it's not a big deal to me. But it's a big deal to a lot of other people. And I think that's some of that, like, low level anxiety, like sometimes, you know, it's like, how much of a deal is this person gonna make about it? Like, if they find out? I'm not afraid that they're gonna find out. I'm not stealth or you know what I mean? Like, right. I love talking about it again, it's like, it's that reaction. Yeah. What are they going to do? Right? What's, what's that? You know, water-cooler talk? What? Exactly? Are you gonna tell them? Yeah, bingo.

Susan: Well, I've noticed, I've known you, maybe, I don't know, three, four years now. And I've noticed that you know how when you're stressed out and you hold, you hold your shoulders up a little bit, like, kind of like, you're preparing for like, whatever, and you don't do that anymore. I mean, you're just, your shoulders are just like, laid back. You're just like, enjoying life. Whereas before, I think it was just you were constantly dealing with that, like, what's, what are these people going to do now? You know?

Jane: Like, I just got to prepare myself and take the blow.

Susan: Like, yeah, you just like exude confidence to me.

Jane: Just oh my gosh. Oh, gosh. Thank you. Yeah. Like, I feel more confident. What a great compliment. Thank you so much. Like yeah, and I think that's, I mean, I don't want to say like I just, uh, you know, my, my journey. Like I, you know, part of what I think I wanted to do was that and one of my big things is like trans care, health care, you know, once I was able to access that health care, and really I think do things like for that empowerment or just feeling like better, you know what I mean? It's like, it's, I don't know, if like no different to me than just like, in almost like a cancer treatment. And like, I was dying before, like, I mean, I was sad and suicidal, and I wanted to die. I was dying before and I got the health care that I needed. I did that. And so thank you for the compliment. Like, it's just yeah, once I was able to access that, and I think feel empowered with, like, who I am, like, I don't know, if people understand what that feels like. Yeah, you know, like, it is, like, you're dying, like you have, you have to do this to save your life, you know, and then people just are like, I don't understand why you had to do this. Well, that's why I'm taking care of myself. This is part of my health care journey. It's not part of yours, but it's part of mine. You know, so yeah, and just like the, we don't like the mesh, the mesh nature of like that one component. So once I was able to, in a sense, kind of like, maybe, how do I want to put this like, be empowered with my identity? Everything else, like fell into place after that, so all sudden, it was like, oh, like, there goes the anxiety to degree. Yeah, there goes the anger. There goes all of these like other it was, like serious like these dominoes that just like, oh, gosh, like, that's what I had to do to like, you know what I mean, every therapist that I've seen since I've been 14, like, you're sad, and you're depressed, and you're anxious, and you're this and that, and that, you know, and like that. The one thing No, like I fix those were like symptoms of being transgender, but not being able to exactly be transgender. Exactly. So I addressed this one thing, I address the real issue, and then everything else like falls into place, all the documents are like there, and it's just I had no idea life could be this sweet. Honestly, you know, like, I don't know. So thank you for the compliment.

Susan: Yeah, I think oftentimes, cis people, especially, are uber interested in asking the surgery question. And, you know, I'd love to hear kind of your perspectives on that. Because the, the number one thing, when I ask people that are transgender, like, what do people talk to you about the number one thing that they talk about his surgery, and asking him about surgery? And to me, I would be mortified as a cis woman, if someone asked me about your genitals? I mean, I'm just being candid. I mean, that's honestly what they ask about my chest like, yeah, like, I would be absolutely mortified. Like, who are you to think that you could ask me those questions like, Are you my OBGYN? So tell us, like, how does that make you feel?

Jane: I mean, first of all, I feel like if you as a cisgender person would not ask your cisgender friend, the question, then you shouldn't ask anybody that. Like, why would you ask a trans person? Like, if it would make you uncomfortable to be like, hey, what are your genitals look like? Or how do they work? Then why would you ask a trans person the same exact question or Hey, have you had any surgery down there? Like you wouldn't ask, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, to me, that's how I can kind of explain it to people to get them to be like, Oh, okay, you're right. And I don't I'm not like mean about it, because I'm very open about my transition. And I'm fine with sharing most things with most people, but there's a time and a place and it's, it's not always necessary to talk about those things with everybody. So I was gonna ask, like, how crass can I be? Just kidding. If we need to cut it, or leave it or leave it? Yeah, the only time it comes up is like when I'm intimate with somebody, like, there we go. You know what I mean? I feel like there's just hey, like, I might get away. I'm just saying, you know, I come with an instruction manual is let me like, please let me like, really fast. But I mean, that's pretty typical. So I think that um, the surgery question or like component to me, it's like this double-edged sword because in a sense like that, that's healthcare. That was part of my health care treatment that was like, again, like and I kind of likened it to like a cancer treatment. I was dying like I wanted to die and I was dying. I'm so certain things. That helped me not die. Um, so I think that there is almost this like education component because again, like trans cares health care. Yeah. And I think that the more people understand that, the more that I think the more hopefully that access should open up. You know, as more people understand that this isn't just some frivolity or it's not just some, you know, I'm just doing it, anybody’s doing it on a whim. I mean, oh, well, they did. It sounded cool. I’m gonna try it exactly. Like, I mean, it was my health care. Um, so it's like, there is an education component to it that personally, I guess, sometimes I don't mind answering that question. If it's the same, if it's thoughtful, if you're being like, kind about it, and you're being like, thoughtful about it. I think so much of that question. Just kind of depends on how the question has its presented. Yeah, exactly. There's a kind way to do it, there's a thoughtful way to do it. Um, you know, part of that might just be like, oh, like, explain your journey, or like, how, you know, what, you know, how was like the medical part of it for you? You know, I think there's more thoughtful ways to approach that question, rather than just like, go straight for like it again that like that sensationalized? Yes. Oh, tell me about, you know, XYZ, like, yeah, because of what people see on TV.

Jack: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, they have all these misconceptions. I agree. Because that's why I am so open with my transition and with my story, because I do want to try to educate people and I want to help people. So yeah, I agree. If it's, if it's for a good reason, I'm 100% okay, with sharing those things with folks that need to hear it.

Jane: Bingo. Yeah. The lady at ACE does not need to ask. I'm buying leaf bags. Right. So it would be, you know, I'm just, I'm just here trying to oh, buy leaf bags.

Jack: I’ve been at a bonfire before with people I didn't know that have asked me, you know, things like in a crass way. And I'm like, I gotta go. Like, why would you even, you know, like, you don't even know me, you just met me five minutes ago. And you're, you're going straight for that, like?

Susan: Well, there are so many misconceptions about surgeries, and those sorts of things. And I would encourage people to watch a documentary called “Disclosure”. I don't know if either of you have seen it, but just really does go back in the, you know, since the 1970’s. We've seen so much sensationalized media about trans people, which only focused on surgeries. And so, you know, it was being spoon fed to us, of course, but we need to change the narrative.

Jane: I think the other thing that is a common misconception is that, you know, trans people are just going out and you know, making an appointment and get the surgery. And that doesn't happen. You do need, you know, medical providers, you do need therapists, letters, you also lots of letters. Lots of like, if a cisgender woman wants to get breast implants, she can just go do that. She doesn't need to prove that she's ready.

Jack: But if a trans person wants to do any top surgery, bottom surgery, we need letters from therapists, we need letters from doctors, we have to go to therapy to make sure we're not just off our rockers that this is really something we need.

Jane: I needed a letter to get a nose job. Something as simple as that. So it's like everybody's got a nose. Like that's something that like everybody changes because you're transgender.

Susan: Tell me, you know, going back to your family, you know, I think we will have a lot of people listen to this story, and their eyes will be opened, hearts softened. Up, but I would love to hear, you know, as someone who wishes that their family would have shown love, you know, like, what would be an appropriate way for parents to handle when their child or their grown kid, you know, shares with them, that they are transgender or queer at all, any part of the community?

Jane: Just say, okay, and what can I do for you? Like, I love you like, and what do you need? I don't know. Like, I think that, I don't know, it's family. Subjectively, personally, family is hard for me to talk about. Because like, outside of like, my trans identity, there's a lot of generational trauma and mental illness and all of these other things that perpetuate like my family a little bit. But I think what I wish, like would have happened is just well, first of all, like, I wish my family would have listened to me when I was a kid. I wish my family would have. I don't know, you know what I mean? Like, I think like, that's where I'm at with my family. Like, when when I was, you know, exploring when I was bucking that trend, you know what I mean? Like, I didn't want to wear my little bow tie and suspenders like, um, I wish, like, they just wouldn't listen to me, like, and I think, like, more than anything. You know, and I came out at, like, 34, so at this point, like, I'm, you know, I got a professional career and a house and kids and all of these things. And, and still, I was afraid of my, I was terrified of my parents reaction. And obviously, like, rightfully so. And again, just, I guess, like me, personally, I mean, I can just speak for myself like it. I just wish that somebody just, they just would’ve listened to me. I mean, that's it, you know? I mean, I don't have some agenda. I'm right. I'm not doing this to like, ruin your life. Right. You know, like, I mean, like, if anything, like you get to really gain this like, really beautiful, better version of myself and like, real me. Yeah. And like, you're making that choice because like, this is your real kid. Right? And you don't, you'll never get to know your real kid because like, you know, like you chose instead to like, I don't know, fixate on a shadow. Yeah, or I don't know, some facsimile of like what you wanted. But again, like I don't know if that's necessarily singular, to like, just like trans identities, you know, I think that kids, I mean, I'm a parent, I try to install my values. And, you know, there's things that I would like my kids to do. I'm a musician. So it's like, oh, gosh, like, I want my kids to be musicians and drummers and trying to steer them towards that. But at the end of the day, it's like they decide is what they decide what they decide is what they decide and who they want to be as like who they want to be. It's more than anything. I just like, wish, like, they would've listened to me. I mean, that would have made like, all the difference to me.

Susan: Well, it's been a remarkable time together. I'm so thankful that you were willing to come and share with us and just have a conversation, which was good. It was amazing. This was great.

Jane: Lots of laughs and smile.

Jack: Yeah. Yeah, you know, this stuff can be heavy sometimes. So it's good to kind of, you know, talk about the good things, too.

Jane: Yeah, exactly. And again, if that just isn't any greater, like proponent for trans trans health care. I mean, it's just like the fact that I think we get to sit around and kind of joke about this. Yeah, train it ourselves and be happy and yeah, exactly where it doesn't, you just use that it doesn't feel so heavy. And that's that's what, that's what gender is to me now. It doesn't feel so heavy. Like it just feels it's not something you have to think about. Like why do I feel so weird the way I am now? It's just like, I feel free and I feel comfortable. And yeah, exactly.

Susan: Oh, thanks. Both of you. Yeah. Thank you. Beautiful. Thank you. Thank you so much for taking some time out of your day to spend with us. You can find out more about our organization at www.transformationprojectsd.org and on all the socials at transformproj like PROJ. If you have questions, thoughts or opinions or have someone in mind who may like to share their story with us, email us at podcast@transformationprojectsd.org. If this episode has been helpful to you in any way, we hope that you'll share it with those in your circle.

Jack: There are so many great resources available if you happen to be struggling with suicidal thoughts. You can head to the trevorproject.org or you can call and text 988 and you will be connected to trained counselors that will listen understand how your problems are affecting you and provide support and connect you to the resources needed if necessary.

Susan: Thanks again for joining us. We'll see you next week.

There are so many great resources available if you happen to be struggling with suicidal thoughts. You can head to the Trevorproject.org Or you can call and text 988 and you will be connected to trained counselors that will listen understand how your problems are affecting you provide support and connect you to the resources needed if necessary.

Hosts: Jack Fonder & Susan Williams

Producer: Susan Williams

Audio Engineer: Cheese

Graphic Design: Carly Schultz

Music: Niklas Peters

Niklas is a musician, artist, and organizer based in occupied Očhéthi Šakówiŋ land. They are a founding member of the South Dakota Women and Trans Musicians Network. When they are not creating music or art, Niklas can be found hiking or camping, walking their dog, or enjoying a meal with friends. They work as a Campaign Coordinator for Clean, Renewable Energy for the Western Organization of Resource Councils. (Website - Instagram)