Episode 3: “Rachel”

In this episode, we speak with Rachel about being nonbinary, they/them pronouns, and how family and friends have reacted to their gender identity. Rachel lives in Sioux Falls, SD, and works full-time as a Communications Coordinator, volunteers her time with Sioux Falls Pride as their Marketing Director, and is in school full-time getting a degree in Coding.

TW: Suicide

Susan: Today we'll be hearing from Rachel Polan, and Rachel identifies as non-binary. So we're going to learn a little bit more about that from Jack.

Jack: Thanks, Susan. So I just want to go over a quick definition of non-binary.

Like the term transgender, non-binary can be a standalone gender identity, or it can be an umbrella term. Some people who are non binary may also identify as transgender. While some may not folks who are non binary often use they them pronouns and don't identify as female or male.

Susan: Thanks, Jack. Now, let's get to our conversation with Rachel.

Rachel: So for me, personally, I don't get dysphoria from people using she her pronouns most of the time, I have some weird nuances to that, that I'll explain. But to answer your question, if people don't know, to call me, they them or they don't understand non binary in a way where it would make sense for them to for me to explain to them that I am non binary, it's kind of a self preservation thing. I get that. So like, Yes, I explained to my mother what it is, but to get my mother to refer to me as her child instead of her daughter, and to use they them pronouns, when referring to E two aunts and uncles, is just a little bit too much of an ask for my emotional labor. And my mom has eight siblings. So like, also, I don't want to put the onus on her to explain to all of them what's going on, and then get the inevitable phone calls from all of them to me as well of, hey, you're gay? Like, well, no, well, yes. But that's not what it means. Yeah. So yeah, the short answer is, it would be too much of an emotional ask a lot of times for me to take that on. And sometimes it's just not a safe place for me to come out as part of the queer community.

Susan: That makes sense. Do you feel like it would be helpful to have somebody else explain it for you so that you didn't have to go through that to like, close family members?

Rachel: Ideal world, I can send a Google link to people like, here. Here's this link, educate yourself. But often, people want to ask you questions instead of doing their own research. And it no matter who it is, it is emotional labor, and whether or not you can take that on is up to the person to decide. Yeah. So for people in the queer community, it is little to no emotional labor for me to be like, Yeah, I'm non binary, I use they them pronouns. Most of the time, people are like, cool. Um, I did recently have an experience with an older member of the queer community that doesn't really get non binary, like they understand transgender, and they're fine with that. And they're fine with pronouns. But they misgendered me all the time, even though I've asked them. And then when I said, I'm part of the like, they said, Oh, yeah, we don't have any trans people in this group. And I'm like, Excuse me, I am here. And they're like, No, you're non binary. And I'm like, well, that's technically part of the trans umbrella. And I like to claim the label as transgender because I am trans mask non binary.

Jack: I think that's interesting. And you're interesting that you bring that up, because my wife actually just asked me this question, like two days ago. She's like, why are trans and non binary? Why do you all have all of that in the same thing, she's like, they're not trans, they're non binary, I'm like, it's under the same umbrella. So even someone who is married to a transgender person who's like, out here, doing this work and trying to, like educate people, like she didn't even understand that part of it. But you know, it's okay to ask those questions, though.

Rachel: And in the explanation, so and I think that's really important that like, people have the space to ask that because, like, personally, if somebody's like, Oh, you're not trans, you're non binary. Like, they're still acknowledging my identity. I don't get offended by that. It's just an opportunity to educate like, oh, actually, it is hard for trans trans Lila, from my personal experience, I'm like, okay, so I present way more masculine than most people with by body shape try to because that makes me feel like myself.

So I say I'm trans mask non binary, so I am trans, but just kind of trans. That's how I explained it to people.

Usually they get it and that's a good vocab word as well like trans mask and you had said femme earlier, like I think those are good words for us to kind of explore. As far as you know, non binary might be a word that people have never heard before, but what are all these other words,

Susan: So, when you say that you present trans mask can Can you explain a little bit more about that?

Rachel: Yeah, so I think the way that most people would describe me, or the way I dress is, very tomboy. I said earlier that I was very much tomboy growing up. And that's, that's a good way to think about trans mask if you're new to it. So wearing pants and button up shirts more than like the dresses or wearing shirts that don't necessarily highlight curbs the way women's cut shirts often do. Obviously, it's going to be different to each individual person, everybody has their own unique style, whether they're cisgender, or transgender or non binary. But mask is just a shortened version of masculine so. So basically presenting, you’re gonna be presenting more masculine and more feminine, correct.

Susan: Now, I will ask you this your non binary, you feel like maybe more in the middle? Do you ever present or dress? Or is your gender expression ever showing the feminine side? Or do you just mostly stick to the trans mask side of presenting?

Rachel: So I typically lean in the androgynous or trans masculine side of presenting. As far as like, wearing skirts and dresses. I think the last time I put one on was before I came out as non binary. So that might have been the last last time right, yeah, I still have a dress in my closet, because it's just, I haven't found a good place to get rid of it yet. Maybe I should donate to Marty's closet. There you go. But there are days like I have a couple corsets and those really feminized your shape. And for like costumes, yeah, cosplay, that kind of thing. I really do enjoy exploring that part of my identity. Yeah. Well, I I think that I have I have a lot of people ask me like, well, I saw a non binary person wearing a dress, or wearing like a tuxedo like, and I think that there's just like a whole mess of like, we put people in a box and label them as like, well, if you're non binary, you can't show a different gender expression. And you can't dress a certain way.

Jack: Yeah, because I feel like people need to put you in a box to make you make sense in their mind. And this happens a lot with like, same sex couples, well, which one's the husband? Which one's the wife? Right? Well, that's not the way it works. If you're two females, then you're both females, that's, you know, but in their mind, like they're trying to, like figure this out and make it makes sense to them. So they're like, Well, where can I put you, I need to put you in one of these two boxes. You can't just be all over the place like you need to either be this, or this. You can't be in the middle that doesn't fit in a box. How do I how do I process that then if you're just right here, and you're not on this side, or this side.

Susan: We see a lot of people who are non binary, who have struggled to fit into either box their whole lives, and they've never felt like they fit in either one of those. And therefore, there might not be a place for me in this world. And, and I'm just going to share a little bit about some suicides dads that we had. We had found in 2019, we partnered with the South Dakota Public Health Association and did a survey at Sioux Falls pride. Yay. And Rachel is on the board for Sioux Falls pride and has been for quite some time now. So we did some research and did surveys of of anybody and everybody who wanted to take the survey to talk about suicide, suicidal ideation, ideation, and self harm. And every single non binary person who took this survey had attempted suicide 100% And you're nodding your head, that doesn't seem to shock you. Why doesn't that shock you?

Rachel: So there in the trans community, I don't know if you've talked about this on the podcast before but there's something called dysphoria, which is where the body you live in doesn't feel like it matches who you want to present yourself to be. And with non binary people that can be especially difficult because if you are between two gender presentations, often you're always gonna feel like you lean one way or the other, like being 100% androgynous is a very hard, and I would say probably unrealistic transition goal.

So for me, I am very lucky in that I very rarely experienced body dysphoria. I very rarely feel uncomfortable in my skin, a lot of that is because of my therapist who is wonderful. And just like, you know, working from within, on, like, who I am, we haven't specifically worked on my gender identity, but just having that self awareness and things like that have really helped me,

um, but I do have friends that physically feel like, gonna not say that when I cracked my neck on accident, because I know that can be triggering for some people. Yeah, um, I do have friends that are trans and feel like they need to physically transition for their body to match their gender identity. And for them, they are going from if we if we think of gender as two boxes, they're jumping from one box to the other. But gender is more of a spectrum. So if you think of like a piece of yarn, I'm somewhere between the two ends of the yarn and I don't have a specific box, I can put everything in. And if you don't want to be on either end, and there's parts of you that look like it's on one end or the other, that can be really, really hard to deal with mentally because it's like you're looking at yourself and you don't recognize yourself because that's not who you are. And I have not attempted suicide but I have had suicidal ideation in my past. A lot of it was because of not being able to express myself as I was, I was closeted until I moved away from my parents house and came to college.

Susan: So just keeping yourself closeted was causing you to have suicidal ideation.

Rachel: Yep, yeah, and I had some serious self harm ideation, I never, I am safe, I promise. But had some of that after coming out as queer but not being in touch by gender identity. So like not being able to fully acknowledge or express who you are, whether that be through clothing or the way you carry yourself, whether it's your gait, or the way your posture is a lot of trans mask people with larger chest like slouch a lot and stuff like that to kind of hide their body shape. So non binary people not having really one end or another to reach for with transition goals. I can i It is not hard for me to imagine the suicidal ideation, suicidal ideation and attempts there. And maybe the sense of like, feeling like you don't belong anywhere, like Where do I belong? If I'm, if I'm not trans, Basque, I'm not trans fam. I'm not male, I'm not female. Where's my spot? Like, where? Where do I belong? Yeah. Is there a place in this world for people like me? Yeah.

Susan: And I'm really thrilled that people like you are willing to share your story so that other people can feel like, wow, there is somebody that's living their true and has found a place in this world as a non binary person, somebody that I can look to and ask questions of and look up to as well.

Rachel: Yeah, and I will say, if you're someone listening to this, that's like, I don't have anybody to talk to you. You can DM to Sioux Falls pride. I manage all those pages. I will happily chat with you about this. There's also all kinds of hotlines and lifelines and online chats, you can use. Trevor Project comes to mind they have an online chat bot along with a call line and attach line I believe. So there are people going through this and it's not going to be an identical experience and never will be but there's people that can understand aspects of what you're going through.

Susan: Definitely, thank you so much for sharing. It's a lot to carry inside of you. And I think when I talk to people that have come out, they just feel so much freer and so much like less weight of the world on their shoulders because they're able to be their authentic selves. And I see that in you like you are your authentic self, and you're proud of who you are, and we're proud of you.

Rachel: Yeah, ha, wearing my uniform today.

Jack: A lot of courage to share your story. I appreciate it.

Rachel: Yeah. Thank you for inviting me here today.

Susan: What’s your uniform share about that? Oh, yes.

Rachel: So I'm wearing a button up. That is the non binary uniform. I haven't trademarked it, but I'm sure the gays TM has. It has my pandas on it, in case you're wondering, and I love it. Yes, I have something actually, you asked me earlier. If I do femme at all really, in my dressing. I've recently kind of started getting really into bright colors and loud prints. And like, I guess that's kind of feminine. Like I just bought a bright pink shirt with pineapples on it, which to me is kind of feminine. So like, I guess.

Susan: I think you know, wear what makes you happy? If a bright pink shirt with pineapples makes you happy than wear it with pride?

Jack: Yeah, because I will say as a trans man. And the first year or so of being, you know, being out, I would have never worn a pink shirt. And I am wearing a pink t shirt today. And I don't even think twice about it. Now. I just wear but when you're first like in this transition, you're like, I have to be like hyper masculine. And everything has to like fit in this box. And then you finally realize you're just being used, so just wear what feels right.

Susan: Oh, wow. Well, thanks for being with us today. Rachel, we're very grateful to know you and be a part of your life. And thanks for sharing your journey. Yes, happy to be here. So are there any words jack that jumped out at you that we still need to talk about vocab wise or anything that you remember that you said we did we have done gender dysphoria. You did a great explanation or non binary, and trans masc.

Jack: I mean “queer"? We haven't really, we should probably discuss this, because there's some like negative connotation around that word too, right. Queer used to be used to be a word that you should never say.

Rachel: Yeah, um, and we've actually had some backlash onto false pride or using the queer I remember that.

Susan: So tell us a little bit about that, Rachel.

Rachel: Um, the backlash?O kay, um, so um, the Sioux Falls pride website - I manage your website. So a couple years ago, you at all? So I went through and instead of instances where we use the word like gay community I would use I would use the word queer instead. Queer to me, and to a lot of people, my age…

Susan: And you're in your 20s?

Rachel: Yep. I am in my 20s. I'm an elder millennial. No, I'm a young millennial. Elder millennial, right on the cusp. And I'm on the cusp on the other end. Yeah. So inhale. Yeah. Okay. My birthday is in 96. So I'm in the last year.

Susan: Oh my gosh, that's the year I graduated college. Now I'm officially old. I am a GenX or course. Hopefully you didn't think I was a boomer.

Rachel: Oh no, no, no, no. My parents are very much in their in their 70s. There you go. I'm safe. You're safe. I have a very good grasp of where that is. I'm technically a Gen-Zenial. Yeah, so um, yeah, I went through and replaced the word gay community with queer community because queer is a word that encompasses gender identity as well as sexual orientation.

Jack: It’s actually more inclusive than “gay”.

Rachel: And I had never heard queer used as a slur.

Susan: Well, because you're 20’s! So we had all we had all eradicated the word queer.

Rachel: Like, which good for you. Can't say that. It's fine. Good. Yeah. Well done. It's so for me it was like that the F word slur for gay people. That was the no go.

Susan: Yeah. Um, I don't think that that word will ever be reclaimed.

Rachel: Yeah, that’s one that I'm a terrible word. Um, I've heard some rumblings that it's maybe being reclaimed on Grindr, but I think like maybe just exclusively within gay men.

Susan: I would think so. We will leave that one alone.

Rachel: So I actually my boss said to me, my boss at my day job. It's not a bad word. Why do you use that? And I'm like, I don't understand. She's like, that's what we would call people if we thought they were gay.

Susan: Like back when no one was like out gay, right?

Rachel: And then it occurred to me. Oh, like, in a bad way. Yeah, like, okay, okay, I'm smelling what you're stepping in here. So, that was one of my first instances of like, oh, this is a word that some people have some issues with, which understandably like if it's been used as a slur at you, like, I'm, I talk with my hands. So if there's some awkward pauses, just know that I am gesturing wildly. But we also have received messages on Facebook and to our email of some disgruntled, shall we say, elder queers that were like, why would you ever use the word queer on your website, like, you're going to hurt people's feelings? Um, so it took a little bit of education on our part, like, I remember putting out some posts like, this is why we use the word queer. It's it's an inclusive term, and like this kind of thing. And doing some personal research on like, the reclamation of the word and things like that.

Susan: Yeah, so it's, you know, hasn't been too long since it's been reclaimed. I mean, it's probably pretty recent maybe in the last five years. Not really sure.

Jack: I would say probably that's probably accurate. Yeah.

Rachel: I never heard it as an insult in high school. And that was that was in the 20-teens. Yeah. That I was in high school. Five to 10 years, maybe. Yeah. And have you had a little bit of time where it wasn't used at all and kind of worked its way back in?

Susan: Yeah, it is so much easier than saying LGBTQIA+2S.

Rachel: It’s just like, queer, queer, it's easier than going through the whole alphabet mafia, right.

Susan: It really is. And, and I think that, you know, if we, if we help people understand this is not a slur anymore. This is just a representative of the whole community, education so neatly.

Rachel: And that's not to say that there isn't a place for using the alphabet soup acronym. Like, if you want to specifically call out each identity recognize there, it's great. But yeah, catch all shortened version for your newspapers out there in queer communities just fine. Yeah.

Susan: Awesome. Fantastic.

Jack: It was a great explanation.

Susan: Thank you so much for taking some time out of your day to spend with us. You can find out more about our organization at www.transformationprojectsd.org. And on all the socials at SDtransformproj like PROJ. If you have questions, thoughts or opinions or have someone in mind who may like to share their story with us, email us at podcast@transformationproject sd.org. If this episode has been helpful to you in any way, we hope that you'll share it with those in your circle.

Jack: There are so many great resources available if you happen to be struggling with suicidal thoughts. You can head to the trevorproject.org or you can call and text 988 and you will be connected to trained counselors that will listen understand how your problems are affecting you. Provide support and connect you to the resources needed if necessary.

Susan: Thanks again for joining us. We'll see you next week.

There are so many great resources available if you happen to be struggling with suicidal thoughts. You can head to the Trevorproject.org Or you can call and text 988 and you will be connected to trained counselors that will listen understand how your problems are affecting you provide support and connect you to the resources needed if necessary.

Hosts: Jack Fonder & Susan Williams

Producer: Susan Williams

Audio Engineer: Cheese

Graphic Design: Carly Schultz

Music: Niklas Peters

Niklas is a musician, artist, and organizer based in occupied Očhéthi Šakówiŋ land. They are a founding member of the South Dakota Women and Trans Musicians Network. When they are not creating music or art, Niklas can be found hiking or camping, walking their dog, or enjoying a meal with friends. They work as a Campaign Coordinator for Clean, Renewable Energy for the Western Organization of Resource Councils. (Website - Instagram)